Posts by The Quiet One

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

Okay, but unless you can prove from the Bible that the disciples thought that Jesus was the Almighty God, (a god simply means a divine being, an angel can be referred to as a god), the term obeisance could apply as an accurate translation. Jesus was a representative for Jehovah, as were the angels in Genesis 18 who spoke for Jehovah (none of them were Jehovah, for 'no man has seen God'), so the disciples following Jesus, who reflected his Fathers personality and ways, or even addressing him as Lord or bowing to him as Abraham did with the angels, proves nothing as to whether they thought he was God.. The NWT, and thus the Jw's as they base their doctrine on its translation of key verses, could be right, couldn't they? "Did the disciples believe that Jesus was God? That is a topic for another discussion, but there is one very interesting point raised by Professor Jason Beduhn. It concerns Matthew 28:17: Greek και ιδοντες αυτον προσεκυνησαν αυτω, οι δε εδιστασαν KJV when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. NIV When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. NWT and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted. Can a person worship and doubt at the same time? As we have established above, the narrower rendering 'worship' can be justified only if we can prove that the disciples believed Jesus to be God. This verse indicates that some of them not only doubted that he is God, but they even doubted that it was Jesus. In these circumstances, the rendering 'worshipped' is very hard to justify." http://jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

If you look at the verse, Satan said '' bow down AND worship me/do an act of worship to me. " Bowing down does not have to indicate worship in all cases, it can be merely in respect or submission. Look at the two meanings of the word proskuneo, you will realise that it then becomes a translator decision.. http://jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow - That all human beings should consider themselves redeemed unto God by his blood, and look for an application of this redemption price; and that all who are saved from their sin should acknowledge him the author of their salvation. In a word, that παν επουρανιων, all the spirits ofjust men made perfect, now in a state of blessedness; και επιγειων, all human beings still intheir state of probation on earth; και καταχθονιων, and all that arein the shades below, who have, through their own fault, died without having received his salvation; should acknowledge him." As to worship of Jesus.. Proskuneo (greek) could mean worship in a true or a false (demons) sense, or merely a person prostrating themselves before a ruler, so it's open to translater bias.. But, if you don't believe that YHWH is Jesus the Nwt Bible may be one of the best, as proskuneo doesn't have to mean worship.. And if Jesus and YHWH aren't the same and you don't believe the Trinity, thus only the Father should be worshipped.. who preaches this worldwide? http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4352

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_worship.html

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

Praying to Jesus, as in directing the prayer to him.. with the praise and thanks that go with it, rather than simply approaching the Father through him as Jesus taught ('nobody comes to the Father except through me')..would clearly be worship. And the Trinity is very important to this topic. Phizzy made the claim that jw's can't claim to be anything special because of preaching the Divine Name, due to him thinking that neither Jesus or the apostles said that it was required.. But Jesus directed all praise and glory to his Father, and made His name known to the disciples, his main concern was to sanctify his Fathers name.. And if YHWH and Jesus are not the same person.. and YHWH is one God demanding exclusive worship and people to call on His name, and He has always existed before anything/anyone else, how would YHWH feel about people worshipping his son rather than the One that begot him ('only-begotten son') ? Although Jesus must be respected/honoured.. ('in his name every knee should bend', although evidently not the One that subjected all things to him). Worship and honour are totally different, though (think of 'honour your Father and your Mother', it doesn't involve praying to them, just respectful obedience).. And are there any other religions that preach worldwide that YHWH/Jehovah alone should receive worship, not Jesus? As to whether YHWH the Almighty God and Jesus are the same.. http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_08.htm http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_05.htm

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

Why then, did Jesus teach his disciples to pray to his Father? Look at the beginning of the model, or 'our father' prayer, the prayer that Jesus set as a basic template for all prayers.. with no mention of addressing prayers to him at a later date. The first priority, the primary thing that we should be concerned about according to Jesus, is that His name be hallowed. The Fathers name, not Jesus'. Jesus himself set that standard.. and you know that YHWH said that He wouldn't share His worship with anyone else. Unless you believe that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person? Or that Jesus was teaching the disciples how to pray to him when he returned to heaven?

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

He could have used a greek transliteration of the original Hebrew or switched to Hebrew, I don't know. Regarding the apostles not promoting the use of Yhwh/Jehovahs name.. In Romans 10:13, Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 (check any decent reference work if you don't believe this).. Even if LORD replaces it in many Bibles, the scripture in Joel contained the Tetragrammaton and referred to Yhwh/Jehovah. Now read Romans 10:14.. '..how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?'. He was clearly saying that unless someone calls on the name of Jehovah/Yhwh, they wouldn't be saved, and that to hear about Jehovah, people would have to preach about him, and teach people to 'call on his name'.. Jw's do this, in line with Pauls words. No doubt you'll say that the Yhwh in Joel is Jesus, but if you want to believe the Trinity, I'm not going to stop you..

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

You can check the wiki page for the source of the quotes in the 1st post, the 2nd you could try clicking the link I gave, and the 3rd post was just a scripture and my words... Firstly, Jesus was literate, he knew the Scriptures inside out and read in front of the synagogue, which would've been filled with educated men. Further, suggesting the Son of God/God was unable to read the Bible ( that he saw written/inspired) correctly is beyond words as to how ridiculous it sounds. And if you don't believe he was either, why are you having this discussion? As to whether Jesus read from the Septuagint.. "Would God's name have appeared in these Greek writings? Well, some very old fragments of the Septuagint Version that actually existed in Jesus' day have survived down to our day, and it is noteworthy that the personal name of God appeared in them. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Volume 2, page 512) says:"Recent textual discoveries cast doubt on the idea that the compilers of the LXX [ Septuagint ] translated the tetragrammaton YHWH by kyrios. The oldest LXX MSS (fragments) now available to us have the tetragrammaton written in Heb[rew] characters in the G[ree]k text. This custom was retained by later Jewish translators of the O[ld] T[estament] in the first centuries A.D. " Therefore, whether Jesus and his disciples read the Scriptures in Hebrew or Greek, they would come across the divine name." "Thus, Professor George Howard, of the University of Georgia, U.S.A., made this comment: "Whenthe Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the NewTestament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations." ( Biblical Archaeology Review, March 1978,page 14)" http://www.watchtower.org/e/na/article_06.htm

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

"If Jehovah had really wanted His people to use His name, would not a prophet, at least would not His son have said so ?" John 17:26 -- Also, if you think about it, when Jesus read from the OT he would have pronounced the Tetragrammaton, not say 'Lord'. Make of that what you will.

45

Why didn't Jehovah ??

by Phizzy in

as jehovah said to the israelites "you are my witnesses" and was happy to let them get on with things without major interference by him, he must have broadly approved of what the nation was doing, until jesus came and changed things.. for hundreds of years before jesus the jw's (israelites) had decided that the name of god was too holy to pronounce.

had he been upset by this he would have sent a prophet to sort this out, but no, it continued as practice,for 200 years at least,and remained uncondemned by jesus.. if jehovah had really wanted his people to use his name, would not a prophet, at least would not his son, have said so ?.

The Quiet One

" Is it, then, wrong to use a form like Yahweh? Not at all. It is just that the form Jehovah is likely to meet with a quicker response from the reader because it is the form that has been "naturalized" into most languages. " " Similar comments could be made regarding all the names we read in the Bible. We pronounce them in our own language and do not try to imitate the original pronunciation. Thus we say "Jeremiah," not Yir·meya'hu. Similarly we say Isaiah, although in his own day this prophet likely was known as Yesha e ·ya'hu. Evenscholars who are aware of the original pronunciation of these names use the modern pronunciation, not the ancient, when speaking about them. And the same is true with the name Jehovah. Even though the modern pronunciation Jehovah might not be exactly the way it was pronounced originally, this in no way detracts from the importance of the name. " http://www.watchtower.org/e/na/article_02.htm